big cam

[5 sec DART jr]

cam spec for the ol dart engine are as follows... .696 int, .696 exh. lift ,, 288 int 292 exh. on a 108 lobe separation..... these fast lobe profiles make the engine think there is 5 to 8 degrees more duration than they are because of the area they create... very rapid opening ramps.. hard to control and hard on valve train but i think iv got the stuff to handle it...

[WHITECOUPE]

thats close to my 364 dart but its a 110 Kewl

[5 sec DART jr]

thats close to my 364 dart but its a 110 Kewl

its .259, .264 duation at .050...

[mean68]

my cam for the 383 was .268, .278 @
.050. not that much lift though

[matchstick]

My cam is 234@ .050. I'm buildin a little pump gas turd.

[5 sec DART jr]

my cam for the 383 was .268, .278 @
.050. not that much lift though

see the difference? my grind will excel the valve to a higher lift ,hold it there and set it back on its seat in less crank degrees than your 268. yet have as much or more area under the curve...it will be high strung but yet still maintain some low speed torque.... but on 200 shot plus who really cares about low speed torque n/a. a bunch of low speed torque n/a just wants to wheel stand or over power the tires on the hose....

[mean68]

lol for sure. mine was a blower cam also. so way diff ballgame. nice spread on lift, .613-.651 on a 114 lobe sep.

[5 sec DART jr]

yaa. heck with a blower area really makes no big difference. its going to fill the cylinder no matter what..lol .. this ol dart car should run pretty good .. im gettin exited...

[mean68]

i would say it will. sounds like you have done your homework for sure.

[5 sec DART jr]

i would say it will. sounds like you have done your homework for sure.

i try too. iv got a LOT of R AND D in this engine.

[mean68]

thats what it takes usually. good luck with it. when you think you will be at crossville? i'd like to stop by and say hey.

[5 sec DART jr]

thats what it takes usually. good luck with it. when you think you will be at crossville? i'd like to stop by and say hey.

hpoefully on the 25 th.. its lookin a little ify...im tryin my ass off. for the test and tune up there.. ill post for a test date for sure..

[mean68]

sounds good man. hope you get it finished. is it the car in your avatar?

[5 sec DART jr]

sounds good man. hope you get it finished. is it the car in your avatar?

yaa. its been sittin so you have to over look it..it been more of a junglegym for my kids the past couple of yrs than its been a racecar...lol:rice:

p.s they like to swing around on the roll cage..... bad thing is.. i dont blame em ...lol

[WHITECOUPE]

finally another ford man coming to the plateau!

[5 sec DART jr]

finally another ford man coming to the plateau!

im ready. the last time i was there my car was going 6.4s or something... it was with the stock headed windsor... this new engine should run circles around that other stuff///

[CPC]

cam spec for the ol dart engine are as follows... .696 int, .696 exh. lift ,, 288 int 292 exh. on a 108 lobe separation..... these fast lobe profiles make the engine think there is 5 to 8 degrees more duration than they are because of the area they create... very rapid opening ramps.. hard to control and hard on valve train but i think iv got the stuff to handle it... po-ta-to!!!!!!!! ha ha

[outlaw68]

cam spec for the ol dart engine are as follows... .696 int, .696 exh. lift ,, 288 int 292 exh. on a 108 lobe separation..... these fast lobe profiles make the engine think there is 5 to 8 degrees more duration than they are because of the area they create... very rapid opening ramps.. hard to control and hard on valve train but i think iv got the stuff to handle it...


Dart jr how much NOS you gonna spray on this hotrod??

[5 sec DART jr]

po-ta-to!!!!!!!! ha ha

po-ta-to ,po-ta-to... lol.... do you think thats a bit much.......i think it will like the nos... it might like the 4.56 gear on the motor. i dont really care too much what it runs n/a really..

[outlaw68]

Tight LSA makes me think it will run good on the motor, not sure how it will like anything over 200 hp on a shot. No matter the duration it seems to be a little hard to not blow it out the exhaust. Just curious.

[5 sec DART jr]

Dart jr how much NOS you gonna spray on this hotrod??

225 maybe 250. it might be alittle wild on 250 and it might be hard on parts... i dont know yet. i hope it will go 5.99 on 125 shot.. thats my goal. if it dont go 5.99 on 125 iv got a wicked 175 tuneup that will go 90s for sure.. then i will go from there... im for sure in no hurry to tear a bunch of shit up.....getting it to go 5s is my goal but i think with some GOOD chassis tuning (hint ,hint dave) it could go 70s . but im not going to push the issue.... if anyone can help get it down the track on a jam up nos tune, dave powell can.....

[Tireman]

Tight LSA makes me think it will run good on the motor, not sure how it will like anything over 200 hp on a shot. No matter the duration it seems to be a little hard to not blow it out the exhaust. Just curious.
X2 LSA seems way tight for anything over 150hp

[5 sec DART jr]

Tight LSA makes me think it will run good on the motor, not sure how it will like anything over 200 hp on a shot. No matter the duration it seems to be a little hard to not blow it out the exhaust. Just curious.

an engine with a real high rod ratio, will dwell the piston at the top and bottom of the bore for more crank degrees than an engine with a shorter rod. the engine with the longer rod will like to have the lobes a little tighter to help get the int track moving during overlap, because piston motion is just not there. this will help pumping losses due to the crank shaft having to do negative work to fill the cylinder... im not so big on LONG ASS RODS but thats what i have so thas what im running... the 108 LSA will act to the engine like a 110 on a shorter rod engine. long rod engines are totally realiant on exh. blow down out the pipe to pull a negative pressure in the cylinder so the atmosphere can rush in to fill it as the piston moves down the bore on int. stroke ,instead of the crank working to "draw it in... further more the Lsa was on a 107 and since it is a regrind they cant change it more than a degree each way.. i got it as wide as i could......thats life in the poor boy lane..lol

[outlaw68]

not saying it wont work, because it will work well at the 125 but a cam doctor sheet would be helpful. Since the LSA does not show the intake and exhaust individualy. I have tried the big duration quick ramp with tight LSA about 6 yrs ago and had good results up to 200. And they had TONS of bottom end. But I would bet the exhaust center is a bit farther out then the LSA dictates...lol.
Like 116 exhaust maybe...That might work

[5 sec DART jr]

X2 LSA seems way tight for anything over 150hp

that is a good subject for debate. but we have found that most of the time just get it to make the most power u can n/a and just spray it.. it will go fast... but when u get into nos applications of 300 plus there are lots of things that begin to change on the combo......like i said 225 might be all i run on this anyway... lots of guys dont even like to spray more than 250 through a plate because of int. manifold distribution problems any way.. its just to hard to tune and not hurt shit in the process...

[RAPIDGT]

mean68 had a 105 cam in his car and it ran the number or a lil better then his 114ls cam in his 355

[5 sec DART jr]

not saying it wont work, because it will work well at the 125 but I cam doctor sheet would be helpful. Since the LSA does not show the intake and exhaust individualy. I have tried the big duration quick ramp with tight LSA about 6 yrs ago and had good results up to 200. And they had TONS of bottom end. But I would bet the exhaust center is a bit farther out then the LSA dictates...lol.
Like 116 exhaust maybe...That might work

i went 4 degrees bigger on both lobes than i really thought it needed but from 6000 to 8000 this bitch should zing. hopefully i did knock some torque out of it below 5500 .. nos hits hard and cyl.pressure spikes real high real fast. i think it will be real close to a home run.... like i said 200 or so will be all i run and in all reality from my experiance it should respond well up to 225 or so.....im just limited on header tube size, compression, intake manifold and so on...

[Tireman]

that is a good subject for debate. but we have found that most of the time just get it to make the most power u can n/a and just spray it.. it will go fast... but when u get into nos applications of 300 plus there are lots of things that begin to change on the combo......like i said 225 might be all i run on this anyway... lots of guys dont even like to spray more than 250 through a plate because of int. manifold distribution problems any way.. its just to hard to tune and not hurt shit in the process...
This is true ... Plate distribution issues with the Factory style SBF EFI manifold is a nightmare in and of itself...

[outlaw68]

mean68 had a 105 cam in his car and it ran the number or a lil better then his 114ls cam in his 355

without knowing all the numbers thats apples to oranges as more than LSA plays an important role in the whole scheme of things.
Dart jr seems to have a good plan and I am sure it will make the most out of a small LSA in that combination, but it will be induction limited as to what it could handle. But for his goal I think it will be fine. It just wont pick up much past the first 150 thats all.

[5 sec DART jr]

without knowing all the numbers thats apples to oranges as more than LSA plays an important role in the whole scheme of things.
Dart jr seems to have a good plan and I am sure it will make the most out of a small LSA in that combination, but it will be induction limited as to what it could handle. But for his goal I think it will be fine. It just wont pick up much past the first 150 thats all.

TRUE. AND HERE is the thing. as cam shaft lobes get larger(duration)you have to widen the lobes out because they create so much over lap. you never want a cam thats over 275 at .050 to be on a 106 Lsa. that will have both valves open at the same time for way to many crank degrees... unless maybe u had a 600 inch engine and the vehicle weighed 7 or 8 thousand lbs... which is just not going to happen...

[mean68]

i had a motor cam in my 355. 259-266. 555-570, 106-106. had another cam ground exact same except for the seperation was on a 114. on the 250 shot, since thats bout all it ever got, it went faster with the motor cam on spray. this was true with a loose motor converter and also a tight nitrous converter. it was just a 3.48 stroke, 5.7 rod, 11.5-1 engine with 200cc brodix heads. i don't think i wil ever have a cam ground with a huge LS until i am ready to hit it with 350 plus.

[RAPIDGT]

i had the time to talk with 5 sec dart on the phone once before and he is a very smart dude. i think he knows whats going on and will make the best of his combo. his last one was impressive to say the least.

[5 sec DART jr]

without knowing all the numbers thats apples to oranges as more than LSA plays an important role in the whole scheme of things.
Dart jr seems to have a good plan and I am sure it will make the most out of a small LSA in that combination, but it will be induction limited as to what it could handle. But for his goal I think it will be fine. It just wont pick up much past the first 150 thats all.

1 more thing.. im not being smart by this statement im about to make so dont get all fired up... the reason some shit just dont pick up or respond to much over 150 is not generally the cam shaft.. its due to running out of cylinder head.. my heads move real good air and should have no prob moving the required material to take advantage of more nos..... that really is what happens, most people just dont have heads that have good enough flow characteristics to handle the matterial thats put in the manifold. hence no more power..... iv gotten good with port development over the yrs and i think we are where we need to be with this dart stuff....
dan's flow bench at CPC in cleveland tn is notorious for giving conservative flow numbers.. my heads went
intake port with 2.050 valve went 210 cfm at .300 valve lift
went just over 300 cfm at .700 lift

the exh. port went almost 240 cfm at .700 lift

put that head on others flow bench and the int. would prob go 320 cfm at .700 lift.....

[mean68]

my heads probably just went around 270int and 190 exhaust. lmao what junk. prob why the cam change didn't make that much of a difference.

[5 sec DART jr]

i had a motor cam in my 355. 259-266. 555-570, 106-106. had another cam ground exact same except for the seperation was on a 114. on the 250 shot, since thats bout all it ever got, it went faster with the motor cam on spray. this was true with a loose motor converter and also a tight nitrous converter. it was just a 3.48 stroke, 5.7 rod, 11.5-1 engine with 200cc brodix heads. i don't think i wil ever have a cam ground with a huge LS until i am ready to hit it with 350 plus.

thats generally how i do it . just make it stout then hit it with 200 shot.. itll peel your face off.lol

[mean68]

lmao. heck i figured if it took 250 once why not hit it with that the rest of the time! lol

[outlaw68]

1 more thing.. im not being smart by this statement im about to make so dont get all fired up... the reason some shit just dont pick up or respond to much over 150 is not generally the cam shaft.. its due to running out of cylinder head.. my heads move real good air and should have no prob moving the required material to take advantage of more nos..... that really is what happens, most people just dont have heads that have good enough flow characteristics to handle the matterial thats put in the manifold. hence no more power..... iv gotten good with port development over the yrs and i think we are where we need to be with this dart stuff....
dan's flow bench at CPC in cleveland tn is notorious for giving conservative flow numbers.. my heads went
intake port with 2.050 valve went 210 cfm at .300 valve lift
went just over 300 cfm at .700 lift

the exh. port went almost 240 cfm at .700 lift

put that head on others flow bench and the int. would prob go 320 cfm at .700 lift.....

I agree 100%.. And having spent a few minutes on a bench myself I dont put alot of wieght into "ANY" flow bench number except for the before and after and its use as a TOOL. The velocity from bench to bench as well as software is not a constant. Darren Morgan is one I have had the pleasure of speaking with and learning alot from over the years and have learned that too many people throw CFM numbers around. When wet flow and velocity as well as stahl in the port are the biggest issue.

And what that camshaft looks like in the .50....100.....200 and .300 are most important. which is why I have always said..WE DONT RACE flow benches or dyno's....

[5 sec DART jr]

my heads probably just went around 270int and 190 exhaust. lmao what junk. prob why the cam change didn't make that much of a difference.

thats not terrible but it could be made ALOT better...
for example (and ill never do it again) i ported these dart jr all by hand (damn i hate myself for it) . they started as a 170 cc runner. i cc'ed one the other day and it is now over 220 cc's..... thats just to much grinding esp. on cast iron....

[mean68]

oh for sure! they were out of the box 2oo race rite. 2.05 1.60 valves. we just cleaned the ports up and threw them on there. didnt really get too extensive on them. it done well for what it was, and was fun. lol definitely could have done much better though.

[5 sec DART jr]

I agree 100%.. And having spent a few minutes on a bench myself I dont put alot of wieght into "ANY" flow bench number except for the before and after and its use as a TOOL. The velocity from bench to bench as well as software is not a constant. Darren Morgan is one I have had the pleasure of speaking with and learning alot from over the years and have learned that too many people throw CFM numbers around. When wet flow and velocity as well as stahl in the port are the biggest issue.

And what that camshaft looks like in the .50....100.....200 and .300 are most important. which is why I have always said..WE DONT RACE flow benches or dyno's....

your prob. one of the few "SMART" people left.. a start a finish tool is all a flow bench is.. its just a comparator.. it would be pointless to not flow a head before grinding in it or changing anything for that matter.. and then one must stick to that bench and do very consistant back -up tests.... i know guys that just bounce around thinking the last guy that flowed there head was trying to fuck them because there shit want move any air.. what awaist of time....:jerkit:

[5 sec DART jr]

oh for sure! they were out of the box 2oo race rite. 2.05 1.60 valves. we just cleaned the ports up and threw them on there. didnt really get too extensive on them. it done well for what it was, and was fun. lol definitely could have done much better though.

not doggin ,just sayin.

[mean68]

i know. been here long enough to tell the difference lol!!

[CPC]

Guys I try to stay out of these discussions as much as possible,but after reading these posts I have not seen anyone disscuss the fact that by spreading the lobes you also have a big affect on the way small tired cars will get down the track,when you have alot of torque. And Jim I know that Darren Morgan kind of discounts cfm numbers,but most of what he was talking about in those tapes was I think more geared toward aftermarket shallow valve angle heads. As some of the air speed numbers he spoke of was very high for stock type castings or copies of them ex.20deg sbf/23deg sbc I have also found that most of the time when flowing a head the sound that the air makes is a good indication of not only air speed but also how the engine will run. After working with the same bench for over 15 years and flowing and checking air speed on more heads then I can remember the good ones that have good air flow and sound good and air speeds of 250 fps or better seem to run very well. also on engines that are .700 or less lift what I concern myself with are .250/.400 lift numbers as when you get those right the rest seem to fall into place,I don`t worry to much about flow at peak cam lift. Dan

[CPC]

We have done many combos like darts and it will respond fine to the nos. we had a pump gas 347 with the same lobe type except smaller and it ran 5.98 on 125 and 5.82 on 175 and on 225 would of easily ran 5.72 but drug the bumper.

[5 sec DART jr]

We have done many combos like darts and it will respond fine to the nos. we had a pump gas 347 with the same lobe type except smaller and it ran 5.98 on 125 and 5.82 on 175 and on 225 would of easily ran 5.72 but drug the bumper.

damn straight..... that thing was bad. and really a "mild build up" if you will... even so the heads were a little better than my darts. ...think of the power left in it with a point and a half more compression,more cam shaft,larger cross section in the int.runner, and a dual stage nos using a plate and a fogger ...... that thing would have ran ,,who knows what... and futhermore that car of yours went that fast and didnt even have a cage in it....:grab:

[5 sec DART jr]

lmao. heck i figured if it took 250 once why not hit it with that the rest of the time! lol

thats funny as hell. thats sort of my tune up mentality also. it took it once itll take it again..lol